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Quote from diNOSaur :

Nice pic! Love that FZ5 skin, looks great on the track.

This is my messy attempt at editing, it is a better view though...

Just had a few good races with Jorge there tonight. I even managed to beat the server record() after tweaking the setup Jorge kindly gave me.

Looking forward to the event, hopefully nothing comes up and I'll be able to race.

This is where sim racing is at it's best lads. Everyone on similar wheel/pedal/shifter/view setup.

Good stuff Jorge, keep it up and thanks for hosting!

There's already something like this, the LFS Layout Database, here.

Quote from Scawen :

Dear Hosters,

I plan to remove Z30 to Z34 hosts from the master server very soon...

z28 was before z30 so I'd imagine you'll be ok.

Found... http://www.facebook.com/teamjapspeed?sk=wall

Great stuff, thanks Scavier!

Quote from PMD9409 :

This one?

No, this one!

Maybe the small black disk is spining on the motor, see pic:


My one started doing that, then the disk broke in half, I think adjusting mine weakened the plastic then it broke. I superglued the disk together and glued it to the motor, no problems since.

Quote from Hyperactive :

Kinetic energy is just 0,5 * speed^2 * mass. As the name suggests it is just the total kinetic energy of stuff that is moving. KE has nothing to do with the actual impact nor with the impact area. It is just the total energy the stuff has because it is moving. To get stuff moving from 0 to some speed requires that amount of KE used.

I think I understand the KE = m v^2 equation and what it calculates. I think you lads aren't taking everything into consideration when discussing the KE of the falling debris.

Quote :

An example: We have 10 000 000 pieces of sand that weight together 20 000kg. So one piece of sand weighs 2 grams. And we have one piece of rock that weighs 20 000kg too. Both are dropped from really long distance so both will get to as fast speed as the aerodynamic drag allows. Which is about the same for both (something around 300kmh).

So kinetic energy for the one big rock KE = 0.5 * 20000 * (300*1000/60/60)^2 = 69,44MJ.
Total kinetic energy is number of rocks * KE of individual pieces = 1 * 69,44MJ = 69,44 MJ.

Kinetic energy for one small sand particle KE = 0.5 * 0,002 * (300*1000/60/60)^2 = 6,944J.
Total kinetic energy is number of rocks * KE of individual pieces = 10 000 000 * 6,944kJ = 69,44 MJ.

Both have the same kinetic energy.

Obviously they did, because they both reached terminal velocity . Does a grain of sand and a rock have the same aerodynamic drag? Then does a grain of sand and a rock reach terminal velocity if dropped from the same height? I don't think so.

Quote :

Using KE gives you the total energy. And just that. If you want to calculate the severity of the impact you need to know the time the collision took for example.

Exactly, you said:

Quote :

the kinetic energy and impact is the same for a snowball and snowdust if:
- both hit the target at the same speed
- both impacts happen over the same time duration
- both have the same impact area

So, they[the different sized pieces of debris from the tower] couldn't have the same KE because (a) they both didn't impact over the same period of time (smaller debris covered a larger area so had a longer collision time / larger debris covered a smaller area(in relation to the dust cloud of similar mass) so had a shorter collision time) and (b) they both didn't have the same impact area (smaller debris(dust cloud with a certain mass)=larger area / larger debris(with similar mass)=smaller area(in relation to the dust cloud)). And with different amounts of aerodynamic drag, they both couldn't have reached the same speed falling from the same height.

As you said, to get 10 000 000 grains of sand, weighing 2g per grain, and piece of rock weighing 20 000kg to go "as fast speed as the aerodynamic drag allow", they must be dropped from a really long height, so they reached a speed of "something around 300kmh"! So there's no chance the different sized pieces of the tower reached the same speed just falling from the similar distance as the height of the tower, which was, at the roof top, just 1450 feet (440 m), so the pieces fell roughly 3/4 that distance which is 1 087.5 feet (330m). So they couldn't possibly reach the same speed, which means the velocity wouldn't be the same for the dust particles and the large chunks of the tower, which means the results of the calculation KE = m v^2 would be different.

Now, time to go watch the Monaco GP.

You're serious aren't you? Well, all I'll say is I did make that layout, I wouldn't steal anyone's work. Show me your layout. I wont ask you to prove it's yours because I know, 100% sure, that I put the work into making that layout.

Quote from Hyperactive :

Kinetic energy E = m v^2
mass doesn't change and in free fall both travel at the same speed. (But KE all depends on what you mention below?)

The term you are looking for is impulse.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impulse_(physics)

Basically the kinetic energy and impact is the same for a snowball and snowdust if: (Bold is in relation to the dust(gravel sized debris) and large sections of the towers)
- both hit the target at the same speed - This is a possibility
- both impacts happen over the same time duration - Definitely didn't happen. (Smaller debris was spread out therefore took a longer period of time to actually reach the ground)
- both have the same impact area - Definitely not the same impact area (Smaller debris spread out over a wider area) (not really about the impact or kinetic energy but important as how the target sense the impacts. The smaller the area of impact the higher contact pressure for example)

When you try to throw snow dust at someone the dust spreads out and doesn't hit the target at the same time making the impact(s) happen over longer period of time making the impulse smaller. The overall kinetic energy the target recieves is the same though. In the case of dust it just happens over longer period of time over a bigger area.

It's basically like comparing a shotgun to rifle. Except in freefall rifle rounds travel at same speeds as shotgun. Maybe it's more like comparing being thrown small rocks or standing in a sand storm. But of course that's a bit different too if you live in middle east.

So, if the small debris(gravel sized particles) was spread out over a larger area and hit the ground, or structures below, over a longer period of time and the larger debris(large outer sections and core columns of the towers) hit the ground, or structures below, over a shorter period of time, the Impluse of the larger debris would put a greater force on the structures below, therefore doing more damage?

And, they couldn't have the same KE because (a) they both didn't impact over the same period of time (smaller debris=longer time period / larger debris=shorter time period) and (b) they both didn't have the same impact area (smaller debris=larger area / larger debris=smaller area)?

Am I understanding this right?

I'll be honest, it's tough to get my head around but I'm getting there...

I'm sure I understand the equation for KE. But you guys are only thinking of this in a controlled environment. Like in one hand you have dust or gravel and the other you have a concrete block with the exact same mass, drop them both and they should hit the ground with the same KE, am I right? But at the towers you can clearly see the larger pieces falling faster than the dust, why? Because the dust isn't being dropped exactly like a concrete block would, it's being exploded outward(whether by pancaking floors or explosives, makes no difference in this) and therefore is being dispersed into the air over a larger area which then reduces it's velocity while falling, it wouldn't hit it's highest potential speed before hitting the ground. So in my mind it couldn't possibly have the same or even close to, the same KE as a falling piece of the building.

I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong.

Last edited by U4IK ST8, Fri 27 May 2011, 21:30.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Why would the dust be slower? Why would the big bits be faster?

And let's clarify that the dust isn't like dust on your coffee table, but much closer to gravel in particle size.

Yea, ok, I can imagine there would have been gravel sized particles, I hadn't noticed any, but as you can see from videos of the falling debris, the largest pieces of the towers structure are falling faster, maybe because the "dust" isn't going straight down but sideways, or laterally as you might say, so obviously it wouldn't be falling as fast. Of course in an ideal situation everything falls at the force of gravity (heh, just realised you were probably trying to catch me with that one) but in this situation, floors being crushed, core columns and other large pieces of metal falling straight down, the dust wouldn't have the impact it would if it was dropped at the exact time a piece of solid concrete with the same mass was dropped. (is that right? ) It's all coming down separately, not as one mass of gravel or one mass of concrete but spread out so it's impact wouldn't be as it would in an ideal situation, or a controlled enviroment.

It's where I "hangout" anyway, there's a discussion going on about 9/11 so I get involved, what's wrong with that? And! the official theory is just that a theory, and a conspiracy theory at that.

Quote from wildfire083 :

Bravo to you my friend!! I knew a few people who tragically died that day.

I sure as hell don't want to read about it, especially on this forum!!

Sorry you feel this way, but if you don't want to read it, you don't have to open the thread, simple.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Yes

Seriously? But in this equation KE= 1/2 MV^2, the velocity of the falling dust would be nowhere near the velocity of the solid concrete, right?, therefore the resulting KE would be far less, no?

Quote from CSU1 :

I'm pretty sure two planes crashed into the World Trade Center Towers...countless died - that's what happened.

I'm pretty sure that's what happened too, who said it didn't happen that way?

Quote :

These discussions are dis-tasteful (check the smiley-face dust/rain pic above) - show some respect and leave it alone.

Respect? The people who died were killed but no one knows exactly why they were killed, I'm sure if you found out a relative of yours died in suspicious circumstances you'd want to know what happened....

You should always question authority, always, not just take what they say as truth. As I said, check Racer's posts, the 9/11 Commission itself said their conclusion on what actually happened on 9/11 was based on false information!

Last edited by U4IK ST8, Fri 27 May 2011, 13:22.

So, in the Game Controller window, select the G25 and click Properties, then, click Settings(bottom right) and there you can change the rotation.

Quote from Whiskey :

Uninstall the profiler, reboot your computer and install it again. You must have it installed properly to change the degrees.

Well, this would be the first thing to do if nothing is working...

Last edited by U4IK ST8, Fri 27 May 2011, 13:11.

Check all your cables because it should, at least, be recognised in the Control Panel / Game Controller window.

So you are saying falling concrete in the form of dust has the same kinectic energy as a solid piece of falling concrete? Seems you didn't read the full post, or, as usual, you just want to pick certain parts of a post to stir the sh!t...

So I thought I'd post up my latest gymkhana style layout. I have it running on a dedi server on my pc, Gymkhana TEST LX4 only, so that means it has to go off every night, but I'll have it on most days for anyone to try, or till I get bored of it hehe.

Added a screenshot and the layout file, also the top times as of last night so you can see what times you should be getting.

Enjoy!


EDIT: I've added the set I was using, which I originally got from [FU]Elson, so thanks to him for a good start. I edited some small things and managed to beat his time. I can see someone getting a high 1:23 with a super fast run. Good luck anyway and have fun!

Last edited by U4IK ST8, Fri 27 May 2011, 11:39. Reason : Added setup

Quote from RiseAgainstMe! :

I simply answered this with a thorough explanation, what's the big deal anyways?

But I didn't ask you anything in there, I just stated facts, a pancake collapse = floors on top of one another, slower collapse and standing core. Where did I ask for a thorough explanation?

Quote :

It was breaking to pieces because it was hitting things, which were also breaking apart and falling, adding to the kinetic energy.

Just because it is broken into smaller pieces, doesn't mean there is any less matter with any less kinetic energy. Most of the material is by the tower, and exponentially less falls further away.

KE= 1/2 MV^2
I don't see anything about structural strength in the physics equation.

So, concrete smashed into dust from pancaking floors has the same strength if it wasn't crushed to dust? Really? You and the official theorists say that the floors pancaked and the force caused the floors to be crushed into all that dust. So I was saying, if all those top floors, the section above the impact zone, never broke into pieces, it would have a lot more structural strength when hitting the structures below. And, because it did break apart, it would have very little kinetic energy compared to it being a complete structure, which is true. It would have less mass, because of the pulverised concrete on every floor, therefore this "kinetic energy is equal to half of the mass of the object times the object's velocity squared" would prove my point. It wouldn't have the structural strength, therefore less mass and therefore not enough kinetic energy to crush the remaining floors of the towers completely. That's how I see it anyway.

Quote :

WTC 3 4 5 6 were all pretty damn torn up beyond repair, even with the little that managed to hit them.

WTC 4 was the worst damaged(pic 1), which was almost crushed completely. I'd like to draw you attention to the hotel though(pic 2), cover the right half the hotel with your hand, see the way the structure is crushed asymmetrically? That is kinda how the towers should have looked. Start on the left of the picture and imagine the tower debris falling onto it, why didn't it crush it straight down? Why did the hotel hold it's strength and not just crumble completely to the ground? Because that was the path of most resistance. The falling debris followed the path of least resistance, just like physics says it should!

@ CSU1 - Ignorant you say? Really?

Quote :

Ignorance is a lack of knowledge, or a willful lack of desire to improve the efficiency, merit, effectiveness or usefulness of one's actions. Ignorance is also a "state of being ignorant" or unaware (not knowing). Ignorance occurs when those who can benefit from knowledge are unwilling or unable to find or assimilate the knowledge. The flip side of ignorance is having knowledge and not having any way of sharing that knowledge. It is the condition of believing I am my mind.
Ignorance is removed by Understanding. Ignorance is darkness and knowledge is Light. That which destroys ignorance liberates the truth.

Also,

Quote :

"...the ultimate ignorance is the rejection of something you know nothing about and refuse to investigate...", Dr Wayne Dwyer.

You are just believing what you are told, so you don't actually know what happened imo, and even the people telling you this, the 911 Comission, have said it was based on false information, check Racer's post, but yet I'm the ignorant one because I want to find out what really happened.

And no one is bickering, we are trying to find out what really happened through discussion, to find the truth, so that the families of the people who did die on 911 will know exactly what happened! Even think of the first responders who were told that the air was fine to breathe but are now dying from asbestos poisoning! It was known to the authorities that the towers were full of asbestos but decided never to tell the people on the ground, shocking.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Planes have actually very poor impact stregnth.

Prove it, the official story says otherwise, check the Pentagon... once again you have no clue what you are talking about... I suppose though, you are doing what you do best, hence the 11,000+ posts...